MarPro - The Marketing Procurement Podcast

Ask the CMO | Doug Zarkin - CMO - Pearle Vision

February 06, 2022 Rusty Pepper & Dana Small
Ask the CMO | Doug Zarkin - CMO - Pearle Vision
MarPro - The Marketing Procurement Podcast
More Info
MarPro - The Marketing Procurement Podcast
Ask the CMO | Doug Zarkin - CMO - Pearle Vision
Feb 06, 2022
Rusty Pepper & Dana Small

We are excited to announce our new series called "Ask the CMO" where we bring in a different CMO each quarter to provide a marketers perspective to procurement related questions & topics sent in from our MarPro community.

So to kick this new series off is Doug Zarkin,  a true marketing visionary and the legendary CMO of Pearle Vision.  Doug's work at Pearle Vision helped propel it atop Entrepreneur Magazine Top 500 Franchise Brand list and solidified its rank among the Top 10 most profitable franchise brands alongside mega brands McDonald’s and Dunkin’. Entrepreneur also listed Doug as one of "The 10 Remarkable Franchise Leader to Watch" in 2022. 

In addition to those accolades, Doug has also earned placement on several "Top Marketers" lists, 5 North American Effie awards, a Clio award and has twice had him recognized as Innovative Marketer of The Year by The CMO Club



A few of the key learnings in this episode:

  • A successful negotiation is when both sides walk away a little unhappy.
  • Brand Value = Experience ÷ Price
  • Questions to ask to determine if you have the right agency
    1. Does bringing on the agency add value to your business?
    2. Are they open and curious?
    3. Do they invest in understanding your brand, business, category, and people?
    4. When staffing your account, did they use it as a 'casting exercise' to look across their agency roster to find the right account staff for your business?
    5. Do they have a clear understanding on what success looks like?




Show Notes Transcript

We are excited to announce our new series called "Ask the CMO" where we bring in a different CMO each quarter to provide a marketers perspective to procurement related questions & topics sent in from our MarPro community.

So to kick this new series off is Doug Zarkin,  a true marketing visionary and the legendary CMO of Pearle Vision.  Doug's work at Pearle Vision helped propel it atop Entrepreneur Magazine Top 500 Franchise Brand list and solidified its rank among the Top 10 most profitable franchise brands alongside mega brands McDonald’s and Dunkin’. Entrepreneur also listed Doug as one of "The 10 Remarkable Franchise Leader to Watch" in 2022. 

In addition to those accolades, Doug has also earned placement on several "Top Marketers" lists, 5 North American Effie awards, a Clio award and has twice had him recognized as Innovative Marketer of The Year by The CMO Club



A few of the key learnings in this episode:

  • A successful negotiation is when both sides walk away a little unhappy.
  • Brand Value = Experience ÷ Price
  • Questions to ask to determine if you have the right agency
    1. Does bringing on the agency add value to your business?
    2. Are they open and curious?
    3. Do they invest in understanding your brand, business, category, and people?
    4. When staffing your account, did they use it as a 'casting exercise' to look across their agency roster to find the right account staff for your business?
    5. Do they have a clear understanding on what success looks like?




Dana:

Hey everybody. It's Dana small

Rusty:

and

Doug:

rusty pepper.

Dana:

And we're here with another edition of Mar pro

Rusty:

the marketing procurement podcast.

Dana:

I say, we need more people. More time. Supply chains, issues are getting out of control,

Rusty:

their supply chain issues. Oh, I know. Right. Well, I going to get worse for everything I'm seeing and hearing from folks is that don't hold your breath because it makes 10 throughout the entire year.

Doug:

Yeah. That

Dana:

makes me nervous. When people say that I don't know about you, I'm sure. Maybe you more than me, but that makes me nervous when they say it is going to get worse this year. Wonder how much worse it can get.

Rusty:

You had these compounding factors, right? So as things get minimized, you have more things building up at the pipeline. You still don't have enough coming through and you can't get it here quick enough. It's just, it's, there's a lot of strain. So we just have to weather that and hopefully it works itself out, but. The good thing is, is this is a marketers segment. It's asking for the CMOs.

Dana:

I knew you would love it rusty, but I think it's good. I think a lot of times procurement has questions that they want to ask, but maybe are too afraid to ask. They don't want to look silly or don't want to ask the wrong thing and lose credibility. So I think this is a cool segment that hopefully people enjoy and even send questions and. Right so that they have this question. I don't want to ask my marketers, but if I could ask the CFO from somebody else, maybe I might be able to get a good person.

Rusty:

Absolutely has been something that we've heard a lot about from a lot of folks as to having more marketing specific guests on. And so creating that segment of ask the CMO, we'll have a different CMO come in once a quarter. We may do it more frequently based on the response. But what we've done is we've reached out to past guests and other folks from our pro community with specific questions and what they would want to see about w I was actually shocked with the number of responses we got back. Besides your question, we've got a whole bunch of. From the audience and we'll be able to ask. So I would say we get this thing kicked off. Do you want to do the honors? You want me to get them introduced?

Dana:

You should get them introduced. You guys are a long time.

Rusty:

Good. I'd be happy to do that. So our guest today is Doug's Arkin, who is a powerhouse. CML is in charge of Pearl vision, and he's a cm over there. Our guests are really going to enjoy listening to Doug because he's just got a wonderful insight experience. They're gonna get a lot out of this episode. So Doug, welcome to our first episode of ask this year. Thanks

Doug:

for having me. I am Doug's Arkin. I lead marketing for provision Pro-Vision is the premier optical franchise business within the Sol exotica family started in 1961. Dr. Stanley Pearle, Savannah Georgia. Today we have eye care centers and just about 600 locations across us, Canada and Puerto Rico. And we are really excited that we were just named the number one healthcare services brand ties within entrepreneurs, top 500 and we're in the top 10% of all franchise. And are up there. Profitability-wise the likes of the McDonald's and the Dunkins, the world we're doing Dr. Stanley pro proud is where this brand is today.

Rusty:

That's awesome. Do science congrats on the success? So thank you. You're our very first guest on ask the CMO that you

Doug:

ready to get it kicked off. Go for it.

Dana:

I just want to know if you hate any other function more than you hate procurement.

Doug:

I will tell you, I think procurement is an incredibly important tool in the marketer's toolbox, because if you think about the notion of value, add value, add is directly correlated to the degree of investment and it's super hot. To know exactly what the right level of compensation or, or payment is for a particular vendor service, et cetera, procurement folks. If they drink the Kool-Aid of really trying to figure out the maximum benefit to the brand and what that price value equation is, they can really help unlock great things if they don't come in with that perspective, it's simply about getting the cheapest. Then it becomes a real pain in the butt.

Dana:

I think from a procurement standpoint of view, we always feel like we're the redheaded stepchild. I think the company, and we're always trying to help and provide value, but at the same time, I don't think a lot of people see that value. And I think that's one of the biggest struggles that we have, right. Is for people to understand this is our value. We're really trying to help, but. That's just kind of my perspective on it.

Doug:

Look, a successful negotiation is when both sides leave a little bit unhappy, you're building relationships, you're securing products and services. These are not short term arrangements. These are long-term partners that at least that's the proposition you go in with. So where I get twisted is when it's all about getting it for the deepest, I don't want this to be this. I want what's fair and reasons. To allow us to be able to learn and grow with you. Some of our longest term relationships are ones where the scope of work conversation becomes very easy to have because there's a commitment to excellence on both sides of the table. When you work with somebody out of the gate and they feel like they've got to take that penny wise pound foolish approach, then it really can stop you from doing something that you want to do because you just get a bad feeling at the negotiation. It sounds like

Rusty:

you've got a pretty good relationship.

Doug:

I try to do a lot of my own procurement in the sense of being involved in those discussions. Having had the opportunity to do this for longer than I care to mention, because that'll give you an idea of how old I am. You have experiences and you can get a really good gut instinct. I think one of the things that I bring to the table as a, not just as a marketer, but as a leader is I can read people pretty well when it comes to. Negotiation and rule of thumb. You never accept the first offer, but at the same time, you also have to understand when you reach the point of diminishing returns. And that is really about feeling out the people at the other end of the. Or in this case, the other end of the team's call or zoom call, depending on whatever you're doing, these

Rusty:

tests, I imagine most of your stuff right now is working with your different agency, partners and vendors. Probably these are how you're doing your QPRs

Doug:

reviews. Yeah. So 90% of our tool, but you know what? You really get a sense of how good a communicator you are and how good a communicator today. When you're forced to do virtual leadership or virtual partners, some of our strongest agents to relate to people we haven't seen live in month, but it's not stopping us from doing great work. Next, next

Rusty:

question is going to be from Ashish Gupta from Clorox. What's the one thing that CMOs expect procurement to do, which can help marketers do their jobs.

Doug:

I think, listen, in order to lead. And I think that's true of what marketers need to do in general. When working with a procurement group, you want them to come in and understand what the brand's objectives are. You want them to understand how important and where the degree of importance is of this particular product or service department? In your ecosystem to then understand how important negotiation become. I think the other thing is every negotiation, if you're negotiating a contract for$30,000, that's very different than negotiating a contract. That's 3 million. In terms of the degree of perhaps detail that you put on sometimes less is more in a negotiation. You can spend so much time negotiating and less time doing that. By the time you finally arrive at a mutual benefit. Point you've wasted the opportunity or a good ports of it.

Rusty:

What's your perspective when you hear.

Dana:

From a procurement perspective. I feel like most of us are pretty well-trained with negotiations, right? So, or should be, I think a lot of people come into the role and maybe don't have formalized training, but a lot of us do. I think it's interesting to say both parties should walk away. Not happy. It reminds me of this book. I read it. I was like, never split the difference. And it was this interesting negotiation training where basically they said, if your wife wants you to wear brown shoes and you want to wear black shoes, Split the difference everybody else. Right. And so for me, I feel procurement needs to take the standpoint of view of like splitting differences and always the best idea. And I don't know if both should leave on happy, but I feel like if procurement does it shop right. They should leave it in a place where it's mutually beneficial for not only the agency, but also procurement and marketing, um, from that perspective. So maybe it might leave people a little bit unhappy, but at the same time to me, negotiation is really about, can we grow the partnership? Can we move past this? Can we do it at efficiently as possible? But I guess maybe a little bit of a. Unhappiness on procurement side, if we don't get any type of concession, but I think there's other things besides price too, though, right? That, that are extremely valuable. Now that I think a lot of times people just don't take it into consideration

Doug:

as happy when their client. Yeah, it is procurement. Doesn't live in this world of absolutes and it's good. And so the point that was just made about everyone leaves the table. They're not happy. That's more about the fact that you're giving maybe a little bit more and getting a little bit less. Everybody. It's not about money. I could pay 10% more than I wanted, but I could get an extra head count as an example, or I could get a longer term. Or I could expand my lift. I'm dealing with a license from 50 to a hundred units, and there's plenty of ways to negotiate. I think the pitfall is when procurement takes the position that it's all about the dollar and the same thing from the, for the brands, can't think about it in purely successes of getting it at a certain rate brand value equals experience, divided by price. And that's true in general. That's how consumers view brands that's. How can consumers. So that's how also you go into negotiation. The experience is ours. The level of service, the level of accrued c'mon speed deliverables. If you get an amazing, really strong numerator, your denominator can be bigger and still have a positive value equation. It's when you're not getting something on the numerator and the denominator is disproportionately large, then. Next

Rusty:

next, next question.

Dana:

So it sounds like you're a little bit pro procurement, which is not the norm from what I've seen. Do you give procurement a seat at the table? I think that's the one thing that we always struggle with of how to get a seat at the table. And so one, do you give procurement to seed and two, if you don't, what do you think we could do to get that seat at the table and always be included?

Rusty:

And we talk about on the shelter. Well, procurement really struggles with a lot of organization stuck to find their seat at the table. They get wrongly accused or paying for the sins of the past generation and it makes it very hard for them to have marketing appreciate and welcome them

Doug:

into their faults. I obviously cannot speak to all marketers. I think the balance of inviting yet another function into the discussion as to who to choose presented function. Becomes one of what are you basing your point of view on procurement in general? Never grades talk in generalities, but I will, for the sake of my own safety and security, look at things through the lens of out-of-pocket typically, perhaps maybe stereotypically, when a brand has made a decision to bring on a service. As an example, there are probably a number of conversations and a number of different vendors that have been discussed when the decision is made, that this is the, we want to go with, we want to. We don't want it to rehash why we chose this. We don't want to be convinced you should go with alternative AA alternative bay. It's this is the brand wants to do this. Now work with us to get it, get the best for the least or get the best that's right. So it's more about the DNA. I happen to have some very close friends in our procurement team, but I think are fantastic partners because they're there, they're leading through listening. They're understanding what are they trying to protect? If it's toilet paper commodity, get me the best. Hello paper, the lowest price. If it's a creative agency, we've made the decision who we want. Now we need you to work doing the greatest sort of scope of work. That's going to allow us to do what we needed to do. Those are very different situations, and I think it's up to the brand leader, but it's also up to the permanent leader to approach the challenge of procuring, whatever that is. Not with a one size fits all. And certainly not with, we paid it this much over here. So this is what the barometer should be. Every marketplace is different. Every situation is different.

Rusty:

Th that value creation is, is also different from agency agency, because somebody may charge more, but can do it in half the time at somebody else.

Doug:

Next next,

Rusty:

next question. This next question comes in from Kaylee Wilson. How do you measure the value of your marketing efforts and the return on investment?

Doug:

We don't have enough time in this podcast to get into a full answer. So here's what I'll say in a perfect world. When you speak and I'll use an easy example. When you speak about an agency creative agency strategy agency, media agency, success really looks like first and foremost. If you're sitting at a table and you don't know where everybody works. Can you pick out whose agency has client and if the answer is no, and then you've got a really successful relationship because in the best case scenario in agencies to be an extension of your brand team, we're very fortunate. We have some agencies we work with where the folks that work there have either worked on the business long enough, or have the DNA wired to really think about the businesses theirs. They don't look at themselves as an external. They look at themselves as an ex. So return on investment, I think is also, it starts with how you do your work. Do they make it easier? Do they allow you to do things you've never done? Do they allow you to be smarter? Do they allow you to win? It's not about perfection, but did they allow you to make progress in whatever objective that you have then there's a natural, depending on what it is. Does it provide a creation from a profitability standpoint, from a line growth standpoint, in our case where a franchise business, does it provide a higher level of service or the ETQ elements, the soft skills, does it make the soft skills easier to deal with because we're using something or a particular license. So there's a lot of ways to measure return on investment. It's not simply did it drive sales. There are many factors depending on what you were procuring. Next next, next

Rusty:

question question from Kaylee again, what activities outside of the actual marketing activities, do you let your agencies bill versus fees that are part of. Such as like billing status meetings, invoicing, coordinating time with other vendors, et cetera.

Doug:

Yeah. So I, I can't answer that. I took that. I won't answer that to the degree of detail that you probably want the person asking the question probably wants, but I will say that if you're charging me to provide the basic level of service, vis-a-vis your charging me for your cell phone. Or faxes or FedExes or food for a meeting, or you're not the right partner. What I'm paying for is your intellectual capability. When I'm paying for is what you provide your employing individuals. And you're paying three times salary in terms of all the benefits. Don't ask me for a billing code to FedEx me out, a document that we need to review in order to move the business. And if you do, you better not be doing it with a straight face. I think it's ridic ridiculous. And I come from the agency, world billing clients for like cell phone bills and used to be faxes, paper copies. We're not a law firm. Don't all a cart mate. If I'm buying a car, I'm not paying for format. It's, don't be reading.

Dana:

That's where a lot of people. And I think procurement, when we take a look at like agencies and account management will struggle, right. And I think it goes back to, I think the Ana and forays, they had this huge discussion and papers about what's overhead. What's not overhead. What can you bill for what can't bill for? But I still think when you go back and start looking at account management, it's the one place where if you're going to find padding it's in account management, or if you're going to find activities that probably should be built in overhead it's there that said you typically audit any of your agencies or in general, do you believe in auditing them? Because the way I see things, it's a double-edged sword, right? You have an agency who is an extension of your team. And so that can be taken the wrong way, but at the same time, you still need to be providing fair value to your own

Doug:

company. New ways to earn trust. You can either extend it and see what happens, or you can make somebody. If you've done a good job in your vetting, you have a pretty good sense of the quality of people that you have in the other end. I don't believe per se, an auditing, I think big ticket expenditures. You need to balance out there organizations that we work with that help that, you know, production charges or proposed production charges. To give us a sense of market average. I think there's a fair amount of process that has to go in, but luckily you have to be diligent where I think the nonsense happens is when you look at org charts and they throw you 10 people that are being built at 7% of their time, I don't want 10 people at 7% don't stack. My floats are, give me one person at. Who's going to make a difference and really understand my business like that to me is where you got to scrub the nonsense. And I always ask the question particularly with service organizations. Okay, great. If this is what you're gonna target me, show me the people that are dedicated to my business. Give me a percentage of their time. Do I really know that there's been somebody spending 40 or 50? No, but I will know if I want a meeting on a Tuesday and it's Monday and you're telling me you can't meet with me till Thursday because your other clients. Then just common sense. You're not spending 40% of your time on a bed. That's experienced.

Dana:

I know. And you know what I think when you think about procurement people coming into the situation, and I know I, when I started at Gilliad, we implemented this right spend tool and trying to understand those things. I think. It takes so much time and skill. And obviously it has, it nailed down, but as procurement people, trying to understand that with not being a part of the every day, everyday day to day type of tasks, it's a lot harder, but I think it's still something that we need to be able to look at and say, Okay, why are we having a staffing plan? That's X, Y, and it just pushed back. Does it make sense to have this and knowing that, Hey, if Doug's my CMO, he wants somebody fully dedicated. And he wants somebody who majority of the time that he can get for us to be able to push back on the staffing plans and the scope that they provide us. Because a lot of times you take a look at the scope, it's all over the place in procurements, like. I see a ton of time. I'm not really sure. I know it should be maybe like in a pyramid shape, like a consultants where the top people are doing less than the bottom, people are doing more outside of that. There is not really good, hard set, fast rules, right. To go by, but understanding how an agency works and understanding what the CMO needs I feel is a pretty key to that. And I think it's something you just can't pick up quickly.

Doug:

Um, you, some people either have a filing tuned bullshit detector. One of my. So, unfortunately the procurement folks that I work with, some of them are just phenomenal, truly great trusted partners and friends and I, and that, that can't be said broadly. I think for the discipline of procurement, just like I can't be said broadly from the discipline of mark it's about forging good, strong, personal relationship with those within your organization that are responsible for it. Probably need them to understand what the objective of the negotiation is, how this particular partner or vendor is being. And the degree of urgency and flexibility that you have, give them a target number let's then come back to you and tell you that you're crazy. You're never going to get it for that, or, Hey, I got you the number, but here's what you're getting for it. It's gotta be a give and take. It's gotta be a collaboration. And when that collaboration happens, it depends on really the relationship you have with that person. How

Rusty:

long did it take you to foster or forge that relationship that you have with?

Doug:

So it's ongoing. I it's really about cat. In that role, like it is in, in, in marketing as well. I got very lucky. I connected with a couple of people in the procurement group very early on in my tenure. And they kind of got a kick out of me as a person in terms of here's what I think is important. And maybe they thought it was refreshing and I respect the intellect and experience and their job. And so we find a happy medium where we can co-exist.

Rusty:

And this one comes in from Bruno, from agency mania solutions. It sounds like he knows. She gets, it says if you previously stated that marketing is about positioning, positioning is about the art of sacrifice. So based on that, it procurement is now about value creation, no longer just cost efficiencies, it's marketing, making any sacrifices

Doug:

to get there. I was in first that we have to be extremely choices. In, in, in what we do, everybody has a budget and that budget is based on whatever percentage of sales you decide. You want to reinvest into marketing. I think you are not going to find few the agencies. You're not gonna find an agency that's great at every, so you have to choose what is most important. And the good news is that there's essentially an agency or a venue or a partner for pretty much every discipline under the sun. It doesn't mean that you are able to hide. An agency for a, B, C, or D. Sometimes you agree to accept good in order to get great and other things, there are certain priorities that brands have to identify is what I call the, the must and the needs. And those are things you have to do then there's the codes and the sheds, and those are the that's the next wrong. And then there's the one. If you don't do the must and the needs, the kids in the shows never manifest and forget about the wants. And depending on who, where that particular sourcing objective falls in will determine the degree of sacrifice you are not willing to make. You have to recognize it is really about finding people that are going to help you make progress. There is no such thing as a perfect team or a perfect negotiate. Next

Rusty:

next, next question.

Dana:

Bruno had one other question and it kind of hinges on something that I was thinking about too. It's you know, what are the characteristics of a strong agency relationship? And is it, is the longevity, the client agency relationship and asset or liability? I feel again, it's almost a double-edged sword. Yes. They, we want them to be part of our team so that they feel invested as a marketing team at the same time, putting on the sourcing hat. If I come in. I see somebody like hugging it out with my marketer and they're an outside agency. I'm having a real issue. This is our supplier. We should not be like best friends forever, even though they're considered part of our team, because if something goes wrong or we need to take an external look and maybe just go out to market, it's a hell of a lot harder to do. If you guys are having each other at family barbecues than it is, if you just have more of a business type relationship.

Doug:

Yeah. If you cut this podcast down into kind of one soundbite and decide that you're going to maybe spend three minutes talking about one topic, what is the right agency is probably the most important. And what I always say is it starts with, are they a creative? So does the prospect of bringing them on ad. Are they opening, curious, meaning it's not about their way of doing things. It's about applying their experience to help you do things. Third, are they willing to make an investment in to understand the brand, the business, the category and the people. Okay. Fourth, do they look at their agency, roster and staffing as a casting director? As it is, it's not just about finding a certain person to do a certain thing. What's the personality, what are the peculiarities of the client? So there are certain things that I'm stickler on that maybe my colleagues aren't, and it's finding the right blend. But if you have a brand that's full of type a personalities, you're not going to want to staff it with a group of type B agency folks, but you may want to have a number of type B folks to balance out. You've got to be able to read the tea leaves. I think five is ensuring that there's a really clear understanding of what this stuff looks like. I have been fortunate to build some strong agency relations in my career. And I have also experienced where those has not worked. An agency relationship is not just 10 on the strength of its clients. It is really about the DNA of the people on the business for me, when I hire an agency for passing, okay, I celebrate progress and I require purpose. So I want people that really want to do a great. Okay, that are going to help us make those steps forward. Not about always executing perfectly, but helping us make those steps forward, but who are really purposeful in how they go about it. You want to do a two day workshop. Awesome. What's the pragmatic outcome they're gonna get. Not everything always has to have an outcome that is quantifiable. It could be qualifiable. It could be team-building. It could be comradery. It could be knowledge sharing, just clarity, transparency, being able to have a direct conversation with your agency and do so in a professional way, but not worried that somebody is going to get offended because you disagree with their point of view. We live in a cancel culture climate, right? It's very difficult to have transparent business conversations where you can disagree with somebody and it's not internalized so true.

Rusty:

And I mean, it's gold because we are so offended. Everybody's offended. They take things personally. You just can't have those debates that used to be able to have without somebody making you feel like you're out

Doug:

there. You may introduce something and somebody may disagree with it. That's not a personal effect. That's a disagree with the point of view, you reserve the right. If you've invested the amount of time that you should in trying to solve a problem and have a different point of view. And if you're offended, because we don't like something that you've said, as long as we do it professionally and crazily, that should be okay.

Rusty:

So you've talked about how you've had some successes and failures with working with different agencies. What were some of the reasons that those relationships with agencies didn't work out

Doug:

a hundred percent? One of the things that's super important is as a, on the client side is you have to be consistent in terms of. Here's what I like. Here's what I don't, here's what our objectives are. And you've got to be careful not to change those as the wind blows, but there is an expectation that expectation of quality control. There's an expectation of. You're going to meet me halfway in terms of accelerating something. I think where, where I look at agency relationships in the course of my career that have gone south is when it feels like the brand is trying to pull the agency. And there isn't that mutual agreed agencies want to do great work. Clients wanted to deliver great results. That should be them going together. That shouldn't be a tug of war. If a client wants the logo 10%. The answer to that. Isn't well, you're ruining the integrity of the. You got to ask yourself, is that meaningful? Is that 10% meaningful? And if the answer is yes then, okay. That's part of the rule that the role you have in when you pay the bills at the same time, you've got to be a good listener. I think as I've grown up and matured as coming from the agency, world helps you to figure out how to manage an agency, but it also requires you to step up your game. Because again, the agency is really taking your lead in many cases of what is important. And if they discover something's important and don't feel the freedom and the safety to share it, then you're not really getting the value that you want created out of your agency relationship. You

Dana:

guys typically do 360 reviews with your agents.

Doug:

Sometimes.

Dana:

Yeah. Where is it? One sided? Because I know there is sometimes a debate about there should be 360 because I've seen brands make mistakes too, but I know there tends to be a

Doug:

debate. Yeah, no, it's never one-sided if you're not open to feedback, we're you're in deep trouble. It cannot open a feedback. You should want feedback,

Rusty:

positive, negative. That's how you get better. When you stop asking that's when you got problems. Next next question question. There's one more that just came in from Kaylee was what factors do you use to determine your organizational structure? And I think that's actually an interesting one that we've had this conversation with other guests as well, between in-house hybrid, fully outsource, full service agency. Freelancers. Is there a model you've got that helps you craft your

Doug:

strategy? There is no hard and fast model. There's not a right way or a wrong way. I think there's just. And the always influenced by the overall health of the business. So it's cost overhead expertise. You've got to be open to many different ways to solve a problem. So I wish I could tell you there's a magic formula in here. It seems

Rusty:

like a lot of companies are moving to the in-house because what ends up shifted back to bringing more things in house. It's interesting how it just goes back and forth. The pendulum swings,

Doug:

I'm more of a fan of outsourcing brands in order to be successful. I have to break through the clutter, not just of their competitive landscape, but of the mindset of the consumer. And so align yourselves with organizations that think human, that brings you a perspective at the human level of your total. And that's going to allow you the opportunity to push them, to think about your brand, your category, your business, relative to the target. Not relative to the competition. Competition is always going to be there. Your first job is to optimize who you are as a brand that starts with really connecting it. If marketing go back to a Bruno, quoted me on marketing is about positioning. Positioning is about the artist, sacrifice, positioning, what to whom. I know what the, what is, you gotta know what the, who the whom are in order to turn these beautiful pieces of work into tools that motivate the consumer to take the action that we want them to take. When we want them to take us,

Dana:

we always have this kind of discussion me and rusty that we need as procurement to market ourselves to marketers, right? We need to sell ourselves, sell our services to market. If you were in our shoes, what would you say? The one thing procurement does provides you the most value or how would you market yourself? If you were in procurement shoes?

Doug:

Our job is to help you find solutions based on your objective, your priorities in a efficient and effective. With a sense of urgency and realism that allows us to provide you with the optimal solution at the right time for the right need. It is not about promising. We're going to get you the cheapest. It's not about promising you. We're going to get to the best. It's where an organization that is there to partner with you to help you unlock the potential of your brands through helping you secure those relationships, products or services. Okay. At an appropriate level of spend that allow you to go further, faster and do better.

Dana:

I'm going to have to steal a lot

Doug:

of that. Put that on a t-shirt that's a big t-shirt, but since you're in procurement, you'd have to bid it out to six different companies and proposals. And by the time you get done, you'll be putting them on a tank top because there'll be some.

Dana:

I, I found that like for myself personally, the way that I've worked best with marketers is that I understand there is an urgency and a need. And so if somebody is listen, I need this done in a month. Guess what? We're not going through a standard RFP process. We're going to have to figure it out, but we can do it. And we have to do it based on what the business needs. I think that agility I've been reading is the new wave for procurement. Like we have to be just as agile as the marketers. To be helpful and useful, and it makes sense. We can't be so rigid to say, we have to follow this seven steps. We have to do an RFP three bids and a buy because I don't think it always makes sense to do that. And I think we can waste not only our time, but we can also waste potential suppliers times just going through the process, just to do the process. Like it's extremely wasteful in my opinion.

Rusty:

Okay, last thing. I'm gonna let you flip the script. I had any questions you want to ask Dana,

Doug:

what do you think success looks like from procurement perspective?

Dana:

Great question. So when I think about the most successful agencies, it's somebody that actually takes an interest in our business and is fully invested almost like they are an extension of our team. So success to me, it looks like having an agency partners. That you would view as an extension of your team. And they're just as much vested in making your product profitable as you are. We can't wait for this product launch. We can't wait for this and we want to make you successful as you can be to me. That's what good looks like.

Doug:

Okay.

Rusty:

Hi, Doug. I appreciate you being our very first asked the CMO. I have

Doug:

great relationships with my procurement people and I value them tremendously with that on a t-shirt. We're not bidding that one out, but that

Rusty:

just say we're not putting that

Doug:

out on a t-shirt so we're not bidding on a t-shirt from y'all. Listen, thanks a lot. I appreciate it. Stay healthy. Stay safe. You.