This week on MarPro we're talking with Paul Daniels the Director of Marketing & Media Services Procurement at Danone, a global CPG and multinational food-products corporation based in Paris with some of the most recognized brands including Activia, OIKOS, Silk, Horizon Organic, Dannon Yogurts, Evian, Volvic, and Badoit.
During our conversation we leaned into Paul's international experiences and how working for other global CPG's across Australia, Asia, and North America has helped him in his current role at Danone.
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This week on MarPro we're talking with Paul Daniels the Director of Marketing & Media Services Procurement at Danone, a global CPG and multinational food-products corporation based in Paris with some of the most recognized brands including Activia, OIKOS, Silk, Horizon Organic, Dannon Yogurts, Evian, Volvic, and Badoit.
During our conversation we leaned into Paul's international experiences and how working for other global CPG's across Australia, Asia, and North America has helped him in his current role at Danone.
FOLLOW: LinkedIn/MarPro
LISTEN, SUBSCRIBE, & SHARE:
Hey everybody. It's Dana small
Rusty:and rusty pepper.
Dana:And we're bringing you another edition of mark bro.
Rusty:The marketing procurement podcast.
Dana:Well happy Friday, rusty
Rusty:happy Friday. How was your week as we kind of now we're recording this episode in November, which still we're the home stretch of 21. And I can't believe that the year is our. Nearly over,
Dana:you know, it's flown by. I feel like I don't know about you, but it's kind of a blur at this point.
Rusty:I found that as you get older, everything just gets faster speeds up faster and faster and faster. I mean, I started off the weekend as 29 year old. Now I'm closer to 50, so it's just
Paul:like,
Dana:That's awesome. I think I start the week as a two year old and it just gets worse.
Rusty:Great. I resemble that and take it towards the end of the year. There's obviously a lot of 22 planning right now. Everybody is trying to wind down what, looking forward to what the plans are. Have y'all where do y'all stand in your 2022. Um,
Dana:you know, they're still finalizing budgets. They always look through cuts and things of that sort. Um, but then there's also the year end activities, right? If are we going to pull things forward, expenses forward and things of that sort, since we're in the finance team, we have to take a look at that. If we're too cash heavy, if you know, we're trying to manage EPS. So I think that's kind of where we're at currently, but, you know, norm for the, for the. For the year wrapping things up. It's a busy time for me, at least. Um, I don't know about you guys, but unfortunately it never tends to go by, uh, quickly. Quick enough.
Rusty:Q4 is our busiest time is at, it is like all hands on deck. It's our production facilities are absolutely. Cranking and because issue we have right now, I think we've talked about this in the past is the fact that it's hard to get people and hire people. And, you know, we've got a lot of openings at our facilities. It's just going into busy season. It just really makes it difficult. So hopefully that turns out you have all the chaos with the supply chain. So anyways, we can have a whole episode on these type of conversations and, but I think we've got an awesome guest sitting there on a deck waiting to come on. So why don't you go ahead and get them introduced and then we'll start off with. Sure.
Dana:So, uh, our new Gus does Paul Daniels, he's director of marketing and media services at, is it Dan one? Is that pronounced correct?
Paul:Dannon or dinner? Take your pick.
Rusty:Which part of the world you're in
Paul:get done one. I haven't heard it before, but Hey, weird
Dana:yogurt. I'm kind of hungry.
Paul:It's smacked on. Come on.
Dana:No, but I obviously can't do you a disservice, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself and kind of give us your background, how you ended up maybe in marketing, procurement, uh, what you're up to. I think you're going to be a great. Um, because again, I have so much experience in pharmaceuticals and pretty much only experienced in pharmaceuticals. I think it's great to bring somebody with a different industry in a different perspective, um, for marketing
Paul:procurement. Yeah. Well, I, I said you guys earlier excited to talk about marketing for Kim. It's been for one topic people are looking to talk about on Friday afternoon. I really did. I'm Paula. Basically in New York, working at denote or Dannon, as they say here. Um, I've been in the U S for three years. So I guess, uh, my little auto biographies, I started in procurement back in, uh, 2004 actually started working in a Mars and Mars pet care. So I was buying, uh, manufacturing services, a bit of CapEx, and I moved into packaging. Uh, then I moved across to my snack food and they purchase regularly. So within that, I was doing similar types of things in Australia, and then got the opportunity to move into a bit of indirects. Um, then I joined Mondelez international. So in Australia, mandolins was the forming of Kraft foods and. Cadbury getting together. So a couple of obviously the big power brands in the one half of the world, we had Cadbury and the other half of the world, we had obviously REO, so got to then move into, uh, indirects and then move to Singapore, actually in Singapore, which was pretty cool because it got to meet all sorts of different people in different cultures and get immersed in different brands over there. I picked up marketing for, in Singapore for Asia Pacific, and then. They tacked on middle Eastern Africa, that was Asia PAC, middle east and Africa. So that was a exciting time to, to cruise around that region and had a very exhaustive, uh, time zone, like a 14 hour time zone between so New Zealand and, uh, Southern Africa. So that was, that was a good couple of years and then wanted to come to the U S so Mondelez. Navigated me over here. And I won't see it for a couple of years with them before, uh, before joining benign in the middle of COVID in July, July last year. So responsible for, um, marketing and media services. So that's agencies, it's, uh, the media side of things, uh, and sales contracts, essentially that they come my way, but the sales guys don't do.
Rusty:I love the background. And one thing it's interesting as you have a lot of international experience, which I would like for us to dig into a little bit and get a little perspective is how an age of the different regions around the world that you've worked in. It sounds like you've worked in quite a few. What are some of the big differences that you've seen in each one? Was there something specific that stands out from one to the
Paul:next? It's funny because they're dealing with, with NACA teas. I've found that market is a market is no, no matter what countries, especially in CPG, super sort of alpha types that, that, that run with things. And you're always trying to herd herd the cats and, and that could be in Japan. It could be India, it could be Australia. It could be the U S it's it's it's honestly that they're very similar. Um, very passionate about. It doesn't matter if they've got a small brand with a small budget, that's the most important thing to them. And I would, I would just drive hard. I find marketing is. They're very similar, very similar to the
Dana:sourcing aspect though, to Rusty's point like our agency's different do or there's, you know, limited amount of agencies in certain regions. Do you see, is there, you know, different types of struggles when you are procuring, like trying to find and reach out, or kind of what your experience
Paul:with that? Yeah. Um, I've worked for obviously big multinational, so we play in the same circles, so to speak. So there's only so many large media agencies. You might have a couple of smaller ones in, in other markets that like, for example, China, but, but more or less you're dealing with the same media agencies. Yeah. There's probably, I saw an explosion of, uh, social digital agencies in Asia, which may be, have probably consolidated since I left a bit, but that was probably the biggest explosion they had the, had the population and the investments to have agencies popping up everywhere. But, but more or less it's. SIM similar type services. Yeah. There's, there's been a lot of consolidation in, in all countries. So it's um, yeah, we always. Thinking from a similar top of roster, if you like.
Dana:So I typically do roles from like a global perspective and it's typically in the us, obviously we're U S based companies and we try to roll out global plans to the different regions. And I always struggle with getting the regions to buy in. Now you are in. What situation you're actually in the reason, were you able to then look at strategy and look at agencies from a global perspective or. Did you just say, you know what, our market's so niche, we have to look at this from a various specific, you know, standpoint, and we cannot think about utilizing a global agency for X, Y, and Z reasons.
Paul:Uh, I think so I've been at it a few cycles. I've been from global sort of dictated down to then purely local driven and then a hybrid. But I think with all of. It's it's like the local guys need to definitely, uh, voice their opinion. And because it's, without that you won't get cut-through and breakthrough and buy-in, but then at the end of the day, you are in a global company. So it needs to be like, okay, maybe some people that are dedicated to this rollout, maybe have more time and effort than you to try and execute. So, so it has to be, it has to be a bit of both. Um, but I've been in both scenarios. Um, and it's, it's, it's, it's, it's always push and pull. It's never, um, straightforward. I feel
Dana:like typically I get the middle finger, like you don't understand their business, you know? I mean, I get it for other reasons too, but I mean, when you're trying to, yeah, I know when you're trying to roll something out globally, it's normally you don't understand our market and we need somebody who's local, or we need things of that sort. Have you heard and had that same type of pushback, and then you've been able to like overcome it in any way from like a global perspective.
Paul:Ah, I mean, yeah, I've definitely heard that. And, but again, from firsthand experience, honestly, different countries do slightly different things, but it is similar. So you should be able to get a global rollout. I say that, but a global role roll out with nuances. So it's. There's a lot of best practice that we can lift and shift from different countries. And, but you just have to put the local spin on it. And, um, I think all that needs to be met. So you're probably you probably dealing with more pride and ego, like, uh, like everything, especially in negotiation, egos, you know, number one. So
Rusty:yeah, I think a lot of organizations still are looking more at localization that you can maybe have a global strategy, but then with local execution, just because you can speed tomorrow. Those are the small nuances, but at least follow the same thread across. I think there's very few folks that can really truly do it global. I mean, that's just, that's a
Paul:bear. I think a one stop shop is probably gone now though. I mean, there's a strong push of localization and almost nationalization around the world, so, but your point about, yeah, best practice. And if someone's dedicated to doing this, full-time, I'm sure they're going to try. Push through what probably makes sense, but you just have to adapt locally because we know that if you don't get that local, buy-in you, you won't get the penetration.
Rusty:So when you look back over your career, did marketing procurement find you or
Paul:did you find it? It found me actually. So it was one of those things where we, I always thought so I, I joined procurement because of rural materials that had. Vision that someone sell me that you'd be a buyer and you'd Trek through the jungle picking Coco. I thought I could call it. That sounds awesome. And, and that, that was with mass. Um, so I sort of thought I'll be doing that obviously never did. He never did that at all, but, um, there was a role doing that, but that wasn't mine, but yeah. And then went through the, as all businesses transform these days and try and restructure. And I was basically. You're going to marketing, sourcing. I was like, oh, tell me more. I haven't done that yet. That sounds sort of cool. But yeah, it was, it was, it was thrust upon me more or less than. So I probably, I probably charged in like a most direct material guys do and expect, but one plus one equals two in, in marketing and media and one plus one critical, a billion media does the minus
Rusty:16
Paul:logic doesn't make sense. And it really does it. And you have. Really understand the area, understand the stakeholders, understand there's a lot of passion and emotion that goes into this and it, how can you, how can you buy, uh, emotional good, like, uh, like a, like a, an agency, for example, that might be delivering awesome work, but they may be, you know, 1.3, 1.3 X times the, the next agency. So how do you then put a value on that? I guess. The finance teams and consultants constantly come in and challenge and we have to, uh, make sure there's enough, uh, enough logic, but, um, you don't want to lose the magic.
Dana:So do you miss working on the indoor or the direct side? Cause that's one side. I don't think I would like marketing is fun to me. So like when you're talking about packaging or cap ex and like in my mind rolling my eyes because I'm like, oh my gosh, how can somebody, you know, do that? And I feel like. It's just kind of very mundane in my opinion. What's your kind of perspectives since you'd seen both
Rusty:sides, is mundane. Does that equal boring data on.
Dana:Yeah. I mean, to me, that's boring. Like when he said, oh, I saw he got sold at the position. He said, buyer, I cringed. But then he said, walking through the jungle and I'm like, I'm sold to, let's go I'm
Rusty:in
Dana:the jungle. Absolutely amazing. Right. That's a great idea that said, I just see supply chain from my perspective. Cause I haven't been on that side of direct materials as just mundane, like to me. So much more detailed, you know, with the supplier vetting and things that I just don't find fun about my job. I enjoy the strategy. I enjoy the creativity and especially working with marketing, I enjoy a lot of other things. So that role, I don't think I would ever be good at or enjoy it at least. Um, so I'm interested to hear on somebody who started over there and came over, you know, DIA, miss it. Do you not? Uh, You know, anything that you picked up because a lot of people, I think that come from that side directly in the marketing tend to, like you say, kind of go in and I think one plus one is going to equal two. That doesn't happen. Right. Um, but maybe you can speak to, to what made you successful. Right. And being able to make that change from direct to indirect.
Paul:So I do miss it sometimes, honestly, cause w w when you do have. Especially consultants charging through and saying, Hey, heck, on this agency equals X and this, the service equals Y. And you're like, ah, don't you get it? Come on. There's a, there's a lot of magic involved. But so from that, from that element, I do miss it. But in saying that it's more linear, uh, direct material purchasing because you, you, you have less people to get on board. I think like you have. You have a specification that you need to buy, whether it's packaging ingredients, and then it needs to hit a quality standard. And then, and then you're off and running. And that's what it is. So the whole challenge of trying to negotiate internally and for it, for me, it's, I'm not sure about you Dana, but negotiating internally is probably 60% of the. Yeah. Yeah. And you've got a lot of senior people that, that need convincing and that's, that's hard, that's hard. And then going externally, uh, most of the time. So there's definitely more challenges, uh, that I think, especially with, with, with people on the marketing procurement side. Yeah. And probably you say what, what, what sort of maybe. Successful in a better way. I think it's, you need to have the right mindset and not all direct material. People want that. They want this. They, they, they want one plus one equals two. And I think they, they're probably more noticed within businesses that are definitely cost out focus businesses. So they think they can get the leadership. Praises versus our space, which can be like, Hmm, what sort of savings did you deliver? Well, we delivered value, but is it, is it, is it bottom line? So I think you just have to have a different mindset and be a bit more on the emotional side. Yeah.
Dana:That initial shock value, right? Of like what is going on?
Paul:Totally. I mean, when I was presenting the hard facts and you had senior marketing leaders, I don't care. I mean, yeah, it's a tough one.
Rusty:As I look back through your career, you've got a common thread between the companies that you work with. They're all CPG and they were all really large global CPG organizations. It was that my plan was that just, it's just the way it's worked out. Is that was there, or is there something that you just really find tricking about working for global?
Paul:I wanted to way back in the day. I want it to be a, um, a dietician actually, I just science degree. But anyway, I then did a marketing degree, but I wanted to work in a food company essentially. So that, that's what, that's the thread, I guess, to get to where I am today. So I wanted to work in a food company and then it's taken a while to get to. Genuine food company, like a yogurt company and a plant-based milk product company. So yeah, that, that, that's the, that's the common thread to be around food and excitement of food the other day farmer. I'm not sure if you love your brands, Dana and farmer. I don't know, but we, we, every brand I've worked for, I'm like, wow, I've got, I've got a, you know, I've got silk, I've got a horizon, which I love. I've got Oreo. I've got Cadbury. So I, it. Yeah, I smell it. Get excited about it. Different.
Dana:Mine's a little different, I mean, it's interesting in pharmaceuticals, like if you're at a larger company, um, right now I met ultra rare disease state. So you don't kind of get that like, yay. There's a hundred people and we just saved their lives. Um, but if you go back to my time at like Amgen and Lilly, when you had, you know, huge population drugs, those you could get a little bit more excited about. I remember when I was at Lilly, they had. Um, the medical office onsite and they'd give you free and the way drugs. So if you wanted some Prozac or you want to, you know, whatever they, which has kinda handed out like candy. Um,
Rusty:so I want people to know
Dana:don't get me wrong. They had to, you know, you had to get a prescribed, whatever I'm just saying in general. Cause they also had things like, um, for infections, that's what you could go and. You know, from the office that said I it's harder. I think to get excited about what you're doing when it is a drug that said I have a biology background, so I enjoy the signs of it. I enjoy that workshop, but I don't. What I've gotten in my career is the ability, like something in CPG where you were like, yeah, I get to go to the store shelf and see this and get to see it on, you know, a ton. I see stuff on TV, but you know, all this different type of marketing materials and things of that sort. I don't get that. Um, from my position. I think that's one thing that is lacking that I think is a little bit cooler, um,
Paul:monetize through CPG, come on over to. I
Dana:do what I, I'm assuming it's gotta be a lot tougher, right? I mean, the budgets must be astronomical in comparison.
Paul:Well, there's always, so we like right now we're facing like, like everyone right now, heavier heavy budget issues. Supply chain issues are our logistics costs are up the, up the wazoo. So yeah, we, we, we constantly are probably under investing in our brands, um, based on all the, all the metrics. So brand teams. Yeah, that's sort of have to get, have to get scrappier. They have to come up with creative ways to, to be creative and they
Dana:come to you then.
Paul:Right.
Dana:No, typically in my role, like as soon as their budget gets cut, then they call me up.
Paul:Of course, exactly. Can you help with X or could you exit Y yes. Yeah, totally. Um, yeah, that, that, that's when we brought to the table come and come and help us out. We're always pushing to, to get, uh, you know, the head of the table, so to speak with them. But yeah, that's always a challenge.
Rusty:So in the current environment, what are some of the different scenarios in which you're being pulled? What are you seeing out
Paul:there? So we at, at the moment, like we, uh, looking at our, I guess the classic, uh, working non-working ratios, we, we very much still adhere to that. So trying to look at the, at the, uh, at the waste stream, um, Provide efficiency. So any way that we think the is not seeing, um, for example, there might be a bunch of obsolescence wastes through, through the whole graphics process. So let's let let's go through our, uh, through our design team and work out. Are we designing things that, for example, packaging that's, it's getting written off. So maybe if we designed better, uh, had better ways of working. We could be putting that back into our working. So such as media, um, we're also working with our e-comm teams to come up with, um, or find different agencies that can work more effectively on our, on our campaigns. That's another big area for us. Um, going through our scopes of works to make sure we're not, there's no duplication. Um, how can we reuse assets? I mean, we're a big company. We're probably. Taken a 500 photos of almonds, you know, should we be, should we just take one and, and send that around the world, say yet processes and, and, uh, projects like that. We're looking into heavily.
Rusty:So a lot of efficiencies, how are you driving and streamlining all the processes and trying to really leverage that so that we're not having to invest into creating new, if you've got something that works
Paul:exactly. He's like, I, I sort of found out all we're not necessarily. We go and negotiate, um, cost out. We, we want to have value added work or do value added work, but it's more so how can we put in good processes to reduce waste and processes could be best practice, uh, briefing, best practice scope of works with, with our agencies. Um, how can we make sure that we, we understand what we want in order to get that from them? Um, so a lot of that stuff is a little bit different. We obviously run RFP. Compared to the direct material side of things. The RFPs are a sort of few and far between. So we are quite, quite selective when we go do a pitch or we do it an RFP.
Rusty:But I liked to hear that because nobody likes RPS. They're just a tough day internally. I mean, from a marketing marketers perspective, it's, it's tough. And especially when you're dealing with a challenging environment. Yeah. You want to find those savings. You want to find efficiencies, but you also don't want to have to try to rebreak the process in order to get.
Paul:Yeah. I mean, we're trying to build relationships and have long lasting relationships because we all know it's, you know, once you in a relationship it's a lot easier to get work done and go back to the back to scratch and build up again. That takes a lot of time and effort and therefore therefore waste. Um, so yeah, we, we try and invest in. And our partners and trying to invest more. Yeah. Because if you have the
Rusty:right partner who culturally fits what you're trying to do, they're in agreement, they might be a higher in some areas, but if they're really worth it, they'll actually they'll find a way to, to meet you where you need to be. Um, yeah. As long as I open communication there is. So who do you typically work closely with on marketing? What role, what, what area within the organization do you typically on.
Paul:Yeah. So w we cover, uh, across sections. So we have the, the brand teams, um, but we also have, and some companies do, I'm not sure if you do Dana, we have, uh, uh, a center of excellence or like a marketing services function. Yeah. And we, we have, we have them as sort of like the in-between if you like, or between procurement and, and, um, and marketing. So we've got the brand teams, we've got the center of excellence teams. I've got separate e-comm teams, I've got separate, uh, strategy and insights and analytic teams that we deal with. Um, also. I like the sales team. So the category management who deals with lots of data providers and a few other services they provide. So, yeah, so it's sort of a cross section really. Um, and obviously we, we still report into, into procurement, but very much probably have more conversations with, with those internal partners and than procurement on a daily basis. And
Rusty:so right now we talked earlier when we were just, before we got introduced about 20, 22 planning, looking at the strategy, when do y'all start that process, what do you start planning for 2020 for the next
Paul:year? Yep. We like probably like a lot of companies trying to plan more and more in advance. Um, wait, we're still going through that process now as, uh, like, like you said, Dana so fit in your company, but we, we. Obviously you're almost a year out, even longer without with those far-reaching plans, but the market's changed. They're pretty dynamic. So we go through several iterations and, yeah, right now we're still going through budget cycles as I'm obviously a, a global company. So we're looking at, um, it's not just the U S and Canada it's. They might be impacts in other regions that we might need to consider as.
Dana:So in pharmaceuticals, we basically have to find agencies that have one that are dedicated to medical. And then two, typically the brands, when somebody with experience in their disease state, you guys really don't have that. So is it kind of like a free for all? Like, do you have a lot more fun when you try to find agencies? Like what's your process knowing that you don't have some of the limitations, um, that we do in.
Paul:Yeah, I, I, I probably compared to you, we, it is a relative weight. We do have somewhat free range to go and select an agency with marketing. Um, for us, we. Guide rails. If you like, like we are out, we are a B Corp company. So we try and make sure our culture and our values match up. But we'll certainly look at the creative landscape if an agency's is popping, so to speak, we can, we can be free to have a conversation with them, make sure there's no conflicts. Um, and there's no conflicts. Yeah, we can, we can pretty much set up things relatively quickly and know we have in the past. So yeah, it's, it is probably more, uh, less, less restricted than, than what you're used to.
Dana:I would assume the conflicts of interest would be the only real limitation factor. So does that make your job harder or easier that you have so many to choose from?
Paul:Probably probably harder. Um, and we have a breadth of brands, so. We might be like, obviously we're, we're pretty massive in yogurt. Um, and we've got some other plant based products, which are huge, but that we have some other smaller brands, like sense of beverage brands that may we run into conflicts, um, against the bigger beverage companies. So some agencies say, oh, we love, love, love to work with you. We love your story, but Ooh, we may have a conflict which a bigger CPG doesn't want to, uh, doesn't want us to get into. So yeah, we it's, it can be. Overwhelming at times, because we know these could, can pop up pretty quickly.
Rusty:They pop up all the time because leadership does moves from wine. You have these boutiques and all of a sudden get a hot. And there was a time where if you went really big and you had that region is a lot easier. I think the people now, they aren't, they're not so worried about it. Well, they want to see what you can do for them. And especially with digital and everything else, the acceptance rate a lot easier.
Paul:Yeah. I mean, I think. The benefit of your life or the pandemic is just businesses that popping up left, right. And center remotely, different states. It's even different countries. And there you go, that there's a business and they're doing still, obviously great quality work. So it's, uh, it's making the selection process or the more challenging. So let's
Rusty:talk about that. Select your process. What are some of the key attributes that you're looking for in a supplier partner?
Paul:Yeah, probably for me, the biggest one is. Transparency. I want them to have honest conversations with me and we will sort of outlay our expectations of, of our business and how we can work with them. It's contractually, uh, commercially. And so I'm looking for a partner that can just be straight and say, We can do this, or we can't do that. Um, I think geographically, it doesn't matter anymore. Um, as a business where we're actually like we're split where we're sort of half in Colorado, half in New York. So for us, it's more, how can we find a partner? That's going to be honest with us and we're going to work with the challenges or restrictions we may perceive to have. Um, cause we're a big corporate, so we have a lot more paperwork, but yeah, I just want someone that can essentially be open to working with them.
Dana:Do you use any type of tools? Like I know in pharma specific, we have things like Wanamaker I know, right. Spend goes across all industries. Do you guys, as huge as you are, do you have any type of like marketing specific tools for agencies or management of media or anything else like that?
Paul:Yeah. So agencies specifically, we have rights spend as well. Yep. Yep. We use them where we're, we're trying to build, uh, like a lot of companies these days. Uh, scope of work tool. I'm not sure if you've used. Yeah. So there's companies out there that can, that can help with, with, with the process itself of building a scope, but also right. Benchmarking as well. So we have those tools available. Um, we, we lean on consultants from time to time. So if you're searching for media or creative agencies, we, we bring in consultants and we're, and we've got a lot of benchmarking within our business being, being a global. So everybody's got templates of how to set up things and benchmark comparisons. They get, they get, they get refreshed every, every year.
Dana:You guys have a big in-house team or do you not have one? I always find that
Paul:interesting. Design specifically you're talking about or the broader. That's
Dana:a good question. So we, what I've seen from the in-house agencies I've worked with is typically the separation of work of like the agency, the AOR we'll do, like all the strategy, all the creative, all the upfront, and then in-house team typically does, like all the more tactical rework yearly kind of, you know, work to go through is, do you see similar in your
Paul:business? Yeah. We're always looking at our in-house versus a AOL model. I mean, we're very comfortable with the big idea and the big strategy with the AOR, but you're right. Like how can we, again, it comes down to efficiencies. If we can do it internally, let's let's do it internally.'cause
Rusty:nobody's gonna be as passionate as, as your own employees in your own team. They've got the inside track. I mean, they are there, they're part of it. They're there for a reason. They're, they're passionate about the brand and they get it. They understand it and they can move
Paul:that. Yep. Nothing. Uh, I was in the office recently and they had a design, I just talking about one of our, one of our new products and super, super passionate. So you're right. They, they, they, they can see they're making a genuine difference. So that's, uh, that's far more special, I guess, than an outsourcing. It
Dana:they're just vested. Right? Rusty. I mean, when you think about in-house versus external, even though yes, you will get some great agencies who really feel invested in like they're part of the team. Um, When you hire them on as an FTE, they really are part of the team. So you've just got a little bit more, right. At that point, I feel like investment in seeing the success of the brand. Yeah. I
Rusty:think that the combination of the two and how's extra is I think that the strongest stance that you can get, because you've got the best of both worlds and you get to that big picture, that strategy execution, but you also have that the field of culture from your in-house agency as well. And this is the speed and it's also a lot easier to get things pretty. So working for Dan as Dana would like to say on the west coast, Daniel one,
Dana:wait a minute, let's get something straight. So I took a look at the logo and I'm like, I don't know this logo. It doesn't look like Dannon, the Dannon yogurt logo. To me, it looks like something
Rusty:else. Dan one to me, I don't know.
Paul:Is it, is it one planet, one health, is that what you're looking at? Yeah.
Dana:So I'm like, what is this dude looking at a star I'm like, I don't know this.
Rusty:You're not making any fan friends with Dan one markers right now.
Dana:The logo to me just does not sync with what I would think their,
Paul:the feedback on it. I wonder if that's a internal or external agency.
Dana:No, I really, I really didn't make the connection. And so that's kind of interesting too. Obviously we're on a marketing procurement podcast of that. I didn't make that connection and I really thought it was something. Uh, you know, unknown company,
Paul:I'll let, I'll let the powers that be.
Rusty:So what is your favorite brand? What is your preference? Obviously you get access to all the goodies, right? You get to come home with it. You're like everybody loves being your neighbor and all that. Cause they can go get on the freestyle and all that. So what's your go-to,
Paul:I'm probably more stocked up now than I ever have been at any other company. Um, so I have. Silk on the milk, a big, big, big, big fan of that in my easily. Um, horizons my, my go to milk for coffee. You can't beat it. Um, I have Dan and. In the fridge as well. So probably those three of my main ones, uh, I know international delight, the, uh, coffee, coffee creamer, which was never exposed to living in Australia or, uh, or Asia. So, uh, coffee cream is, uh, I think quite, quite unique here. So yeah, I fell in love with it. I have it probably my go-to second coffee in the morning, international delight.
Rusty:Here's a little fun fact. Speaking of coffee, I've never tried. Coffee.
Paul:I
Rusty:love the smell of roasted coffee beans, but I've never tried coffee. You drink tea. I do. I drink a lot of tea, not hot to add your ice tea. I live in Texas, so it's warm. I putting the hot, just isn't something that I'd want, but I, and plus when I was young as a kid, Back when you could smoke and drink while you could always drink coffee in class. But I had a teacher who smoked like a chimney in between classes and she just had this really ranked breath with coffee and she'd be like right behind your ear. And I was probably second grade or something. It was just, oh. And I was like, I've never drank it out. Whatever she's drinking. I don't want to it's it did it scarred me for life wasn't mine. So
Paul:it's a Toyota, sorry, arrest. You're missing out. I'm sorry. Everybody
Rusty:says that, but to this. I think I've gone off
Dana:physically. You're missing out on, I would say some of more of the espresso drinks and then the flavorings is what I enjoy about them. I really don't like, but
Rusty:at that point you're just drinking basically just you're drinking all the toppings and all that stuff that just basic equity, a little
Dana:bit of vanilla to me is like completely different from soda. Right. It's still caffeine. So I enjoy it.
Rusty:I like team so stick with them,
Paul:but I just thought I'd throw that out there. Keep it simple. Keep it simple.
Rusty:So you've got your favorites here. What were some of your other favorite products or items that you really miss from working some of these
Paul:other ones? Uh, I mean, for sure, Cadbury, dairy, milk, chocolate, you know, you, you ask any, uh, any Australian, any, any Brit, any, any Indian when they move abroad, that's probably what they, what they miss the most. Yeah. They grew up with it, the nimble on chocolate. So, and it tastes unique. It's unique in every country because it's a different, different dairy. So yeah, I miss that a lot and it's, I find American chocolate. A little bit different and it's got a little D different types, the Hershey's et cetera. I say, yeah. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Cadbury could be the number one thing I missed. Okay. Not, not, not veggie mine. I don't miss veggie mine.
Dana:What is that stuff anyways? You always hear about it, but it sounds absolutely. I know, but it sounds disgusting. So why anybody, why would they name it? Something that does not appear.
Paul:It comes from, uh, uh, yeast, uh, B extracts basically. You're like put that on more or less. Yeah. Okay. You should bring in Texas. Definitely not. I don't think so.
Rusty:So what's next for your career? Obviously you came in during COVID and. Where do you see within marketing procurement? How do you see that evolution? What are you some of the changes that you've seen within the marketing procurement spectrum and
Paul:evolving into? Yeah, I like that question. So I was, uh, I think marketing procurement's been around for 25 years. I think I read that recently or 26 years. So it's, it's probably got a long way to go. Um, as far as. Acceptance. I think so. It's, it's, it's, it's a bit niche-y uh, I think we, we mentioned earlier, like, I mean, procurement, I'm not a hundred percent procurement. Uh, I'm not in marketing. So where do you fit? I think truly it needs to evolve to what I know the WFA are pushing for, which is a. Aligned metrics with, with, with brands and with procurement. So, I mean, there's still been a very heavy perception of, of cost out. And, and as I said earlier, we're not cost out. We're, we're trying to add value and have processes and streamline things basically. So value versus cost out. Exactly. And I think until it's truly recognized, um, that's, that's the end game. So yeah, for me, it has to evolve a little bit more, um, We'd love to see most procurement or marketing procurement professionals be in the room with the senior brand leads that the senior, uh, presidents bring when they're setting, when they're setting strategy. Because I think that's, uh, it's important to have us as, as true partners. Um, I think that's, that's a big push. What's preventing
Rusty:that from. Do you think?
Paul:I still think internal perceptions. Yeah. Um, that you're here to potentially slash costs. Therefore get out of the room and we'll, we'll bring you back when we've got a problem. I was like, no, let us in, let us in earlier we can help where we're not financed where we're not a consultant where, uh, we're here to actually. We understand, we understand what you want to do. And, but we understand also the financial reality of, of what we've got or where we want to head. So let us in and let us help. Yeah. That is such
Rusty:a common thread through all the interviews we've had. Dana is that we're not getting a seat at the table. We're not being allowed in we're there when they need us. There's a moment. But. Yeah. All the other times, the marketing procurement seems to be begging, to be part of that, that strategy got processed, just having 100%
Dana:everywhere I've gone. We've always been like, can we get a seat at the table? I think I even saw somebody on LinkedIn this past week, we had, they made up a meme about, Hey, when a procurement finally gets a seat at the table and the guy's like jumping the joint or whatever it was. Right. It was like, maybe it was something from the squid games. Um, but it is so true because people don't, people do view as I think in this. Mindset is Binance, um, as FP and a, but at least when you're in that type of role, they have to work with the O does that their budgets? They don't get to say no, like they do from the sourcing or procurement standpoint, where if you don't have a policy or you don't have a mandate, the only reason people work with me and like my current past two roles is because they like. Because they think I can provide value. Right. And yes, I may be able to stop some POS and things of that sort, but I mean, I get trumped very easily and can be told, Hey, you have to approve this. Right. Um, you know, the CFO is calling, whoever's calling, but it's that they don't have to work with us. And so I think that's why we always struggled to get that seat. Um, and even, I feel like if we prove our value, sometimes. It's just kind of like stay out of my business. I still get that feeling no matter what it's like, you probably can't help. You can help us when we need, but you really don't need to
Paul:see. Yeah. Th th th there is always a battle. I mean, you do have to prove yourself, but even when you proved yourself, are you truly there or are you still like scratching at the door a little bit? So maybe that's, that's on us as marketing procurement to just keep coming up with inventive ways to, uh, to show our value or, yeah, it'd probably be a bit of both. I'm not sure marketing. Maybe
Rusty:you've got to market marketing procurement. Probably got to take some of the pages out of the playbook and start marketing, marketing, your buttons, your benefits and your values. I mean, I look at marketers, same as salespeople. Salespeople would love to be sold to marketers. Love to be marked.
Dana:But I think that that's what I've noticed too though. And the people that we've had on and who've been successful. I think they tend to have some, a little bit of the marketing side too. Right. Or they came from it directly, which not as often, but I think that's what helps make somebody so successful is it, you could kind of do it, maybe not as well, but at least in some sense, right. You could market to them or you could sell it to them, um, in a way that they can see the value and actually want to bring you in.
Paul:We should try tips on how to market ourselves to marketeers. Yeah.
Dana:Anytime
Rusty:I think there's something there though. I think that is something that is often overlooked and it's no different than trying to navigate some of the challenges internally that you all alluded to the
Dana:trustee use that we have to market to you. Why don't you give me a good example, then let's put that. Spotlight on you. How, what would, if marketing procurements coming over, w what's a good strategy. What's a good plan. In your opinion,
Rusty:the first thing is you, you set a report. You're having success because people like. And the people that I am working with you, they like you now, you've probably put more effort into it that with those folks and they've, they they've expressed more and to us to be able to work with you. But at the same time, I look at a lot of times you're having to pay for the sins of the people before you, right. You may be coming in with all the right answers, but the guy before you, the person that was in that role, They came in and trying to cut costs, unfortunately down, that's your cross to bear. And that's a challenge for a lot of folks. So you've got to break down that and you've got to show that value and it's no different than trying to break into an organization. Think about how people are marketing to you to try to get your eyeballs and your attention. You've got to do the same thing with these markets. You're on the same
Dana:team. Right. And that's exactly it. And I think, you know, one of my most recent, um, I guess I, you could call it marketing tactic to a new internal business partner was listen, if we can do X, Y, and Z, and we could maybe have a global contract for these people or other people within, you know, the company can use it then guess what? You get the credit. I literally put in the email, you will get the credit for that. You know, this venture, just let me do the legwork for you.
Rusty:Yeah. How was that successful? No
Dana:partner in all fairness, it's not a marketing business partner, so maybe that wasn't the right sell. Um,
Rusty:hello. You, maybe you can get the points for it too. I mean, sometimes you get points without having to wait. Yeah. You don't get the score, but you get the credit a little bit. So I don't know. I think it's just a challenge. It's it's it's it's just interesting to hear. Can you talk about that as well, because we've heard that from quite a few folks and I just think it's something that I think markers need to understand more, that there are some advocates on the marketing procurement side. They're not all throw out bad. They're all there. They're trying to find value and they're trying to help.
Paul:Yeah, I think a good marketing procurement professional needs to be persistent. So-so persistent and have a lot of resilience because you're going to get doors shut on you a lot. So you have to keep, keep going back, keep going back and you'll break through and there'll be.
Rusty:Uh, Paul, I really appreciate the time. This has been really insightful. I appreciate you taking time out of your schedule, especially in Q4. It's a busy time for everybody cause you got all that planning to do so. Hey, so I appreciate it. Good to meet
Paul:you. Cheers.